Bitterbarn’s Weblog

aka “The Bull” (some content not suitable for children or religous zealots)

Mormon Like Me.

words; Religious deference, Hauns Mill, Joseph Fielding Smith, Fundamental Baptist, Modern day MOB

Why don’t we just take a few deep breaths before we send 400 folks off to the gas chamber. I have been contemplating the relevant issues of my earthly pilgrimage this last week as the news from Eldorado has come to light. I started this very post early on but didn’t dare to publish it. But, now as the momentum is beginning to take new direction maybe I could say these things without you thinking I am more nutzo than I am.

At first when I heard about things like “rape” and forced marriages I was as outraged as you. I thought, “yeah, finally someone will drop the bomb on these crazies”.

That initial feeling I believe comes because all my life my faith has been identified as a cult or a sect. Often I am asked about polygamy, Whether we practice it or not, why did the “Mormons” practice polygamy etc. Recently I believe a “Mormon” presidential candidate was ousted unfairly mostly because of his religion. I have personally been a target for anti- Mormonism where I work.

HISTORY LESSON;

1. March 24 1832; OHIO ; Joseph Smith is dragged out of his home beaten,tared and feathed by a “mob on a noble errand”.

2. October 30, 1838 Missouri 18 Mormons slaughtered at Hauns mill at the now notorious “Hauns Mill Masacre”,,,

“After the initial attack, several of those who had been wounded or had surrendered were shot at point blank range. Members of the militia entered the shop and found ten-year-old Sardius Smith hiding under the blacksmith’s bellows. William Reynolds put the muzzle of his gun against the boy’s skull and blew off the upper part of his head. Reynolds later explained, “Nits will make lice, and if he had lived he would have become a Mormon.”[4] Seventy-eight year old Thomas McBride surrendered his musket to militiaman Jacob Rogers, who then shot McBride and hacked his body with a corn knife. Several bodies were mutilated or clothing stolen while many women were assaulted. Houses were robbed, wagons, tents and clothing were stolen, and horses and livestock were driven off, leaving the surviving women and children destitute.”

3. 1857 Salt Lake Valley Joseph Fielding Smith was acausted by us army militia sent to destory mormon settlements. An anrgy Mober exlaimed his purpose to exterminate Mormons when he stumbled on Joseph F. Smith. When aske “are you a Mormon”, he said ” yes sir, died in the wool, true blue, through and through”.

4. October 27 1838 most Americans don’t know that the govoner of Missouri gave and extermination order for anyone to kill Mormons on sight and without question, here the kicker this LAW wasn’t replealed unitl 1976. guess I am lucky to be alive.

Whats the point:

I have never felt as close to these “mormon” zealots as I do now. At a time when their children have been taken from them and seperated. I guess I feel connected to them because this sort of thing could happen to any of us. If people think we are as bizzare as we think the FLDS is then why not.

Just like what happend to a certain relgion durring WW2. Are they CRazy? yes, Are they weird? of course. Do they rape little girls???? I Don’t know. I DO know they have not yet found this so called 16 year old that allegeldy made an emergency call. And I DO know that the guy they were hunting hasn’t been in Texas in 30 years. I am told that it is a group of “fundamental Baptists” that kind of staged this whole thing. So a group of some other religion targets you and your family “cuz your gonna burn in hell (hillbilly accent)”. They ride in on thier cute little Christian busses and load you up, separate you. and march you off.

This is a quote off of http://www.mormonmatters.org

“This whole thing is starting to stink to high heaven.

All the articles I’ve seen defending this action seem to be based on “everybody knows” evidence.

Now sure these people have some wacky beliefs, but they are still Americans, and last time I checked “everybody knows” is not sufficient to take children away from their parents- you ought have some actual evidence- and from everything coming out of the police this does not seem to be apparent.”

Advertisements

April 17, 2008 - Posted by | Uncategorized | , , , ,

40 Comments

  1. Why don’t you check your salvation at http://www.needGod.com ?

    Comment by Justin | April 17, 2008

  2. I rest my case

    Comment by bitterbarn | April 17, 2008

  3. Hehe. Look at the silly little “Christian” come to save us. Too bad he doesn’t know anything about what the atonement is.

    “Christians” are too busy worshiping the Bible to have any room for Christ in their lives.

    This whole FLDS thing disgusts me. The government has always hated non-protestant or catholic religions. It’s only freedom of religion for certain religions. If they want to crack down on some truly dangerous religions, they might want to start with those Islam extremists down in Arizona.

    Comment by BugHunter | April 17, 2008

  4. I only need to mention Elder Holland’s talks on being saved and about our status as Christians.

    Comment by cuzin Chris | April 17, 2008

  5. Is that Justin kid for real… that has to be one of the wierdest web sites I’ve ever had the displeasure to come across thanks for that ya fruit. Last time I checked salvation by the standards afforded us by Our Lord and Savior weren’t qualified by a web site asking questions about past sins… what about repentance? I don’t know exactly whats going on in Texas but the more I learn about it the more it worries me. I’m all for protection of the innocent but what about freedom of religion?

    Comment by Mark | April 17, 2008

  6. BugHunter, you said that “Christians are too busy worshipping the Bible to have any room for Christ in their lives.” I do not know anybody who worships leather and binding. They do highly revere the words. And whose words are they? The Bible is the Word of God so we worship Christ.

    Comment by Justin | April 17, 2008

  7. I just think that when you say. “Salvation” you might have that word confused with resurrection. If its Resurrection your peddling; great; thanks I have some already. Now, if by “salvation” you mean Exaltation, your confused and thats OK, most people/religions are.
    please explain to me without quoting a scripture what “salvation” means.
    respectfully
    the bull

    Comment by bitterbarn | April 17, 2008

  8. Sorry I meant Elder Oaks, He says “Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” If we answer according to the various meanings we attach to the terms saved or salvation, our answer will be either “yes” or “yes, but with conditions.”

    Comment by Cuzin Chris | April 17, 2008

  9. First, all mortals have been saved from the permanence of death through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).

    “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (A of F 1:3).

    Comment by Cuzin Chris | April 17, 2008

  10. “I do not know anybody who worships leather and binding.” No mirrors where you come from?

    The website, and I gather the feelings of Justin, are that if you have ever broken one of the 10 commandments then you are not “saved”. That is the premise of the law of Moses. Justin must therefore be Jewish…which would be fine, but he isn’t. He’s a “Christian”. A “Christian” that only believes in the law of Moses. The mind boggles at the ignorance.

    How did Justin get trapped in this mentality? Is it because he understood a couple of lines in the Bible, which he worships, instead of understanding Christ’s message, which can be found in the Bible? What about Christ’s words that aren’t in the Bible? Shouldn’t those be revered as well? Or just the ones found in the object he “put before God”…the Bible. Christ said a great many things, many of which are not contained in the Bible. Which takes precedence?

    You don’t know me Justin, so here’s a word of advice, that can be confirmed by the rest of the folk around here. Don’t start with me. I’m always right. It’s what I do.

    Is anyone wondering why it is I learned to actually talk to people, while in Oklahoma? 😀

    Comment by BugHunter | April 17, 2008

  11. heal… down boy… down.

    Comment by the bull | April 17, 2008

  12. Hey Bughunter, let’s start over. I don’t want you to be unnecessarily mad at me.

    SO here is what I believe. I like to break down the gospel as I have remembered it into 5 parts. F-A-I-T-H. I will try to do this from memory.

    F is for forgiveness. We all have sinned and need God’s forgiveness. We break God’s commandments. Romans 3:23 tells me that all have sinned and fallen short of God’s standard. That forgiveness is through Jesus Christ as Ephesians 1:7 tells me that in Him (Jesus) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

    A is for available. That forgiveness is available. John 3:16 tells me that God loves the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son so that whoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life. Even though forgiveness is available, it is not automatic. Matthew 7:21 tells me that not everyone who says to God Lord, Lord will get to Heaven.

    I is for impossible. It is impossible to get to Heaven by our own effort because of who we are (sinners) and because of who God is (Holy). Ephesians 2:8 tells me that by grace I have been saved, through faith, and this is not of myself. It is God’s gift. So then how does a sinful person get to Heaven?

    T is for turn. If you were going down a road and someone asked you to turn, what would he or she be asking you to do? You would change direction. In other words, repent. You turn away from something – sin – and turn towards someone – Jesus Christ. I know we turn from sin because Luke 13:3 tells me that unless we repent we will all perish as well and I know we turn to put our faith in Jesus alone for our salvation (not our effort in any way) because John 14:6 tells me that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus. And Romans 10:9-10 tell me that if I confess with my mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, I will be saved. For with the mouth one confesses resulting in righteousness and with the heart one believes resulting in salvation. What happens if someone is willing to repent and trust in Jesus?

    H is for Heaven. Heaven is where God is. I know this because the Bible tells me (I forgot the reference) if Christ goes away to prepare a place for me, He will come again and receive me to Himself so that where He is I may be also. It is not just Heaven later though. It is also eternal life that can begin now with Jesus. John 10:10 tells me that Jesus has come that I may have life and have to to the full.

    How can a person receive forgiveness of sin, eternal life, and go to Heaven when they die? By trusting in Jesus Christ alone as Savior and Lord. Basically it is by another use of the word FAITH. Forsaking All I Trust Him. Do that today.

    Comment by Justin | April 17, 2008

  13. It’s funny how we belive so much of the same things. I like your last sentence. “forgivness, eternal life and “go to heaven” when they die”. We believe all that stuff too. Barring the “Eternal life” part which I assume you belive is “immortality”.
    That is all absolutly correct and true.
    The difference is like that of a VW bug vs. a lexus. If you want to belive in christ, be forgiven by mercy and have immortality in “heaven”. you will, and I believe that.
    There are more pieces though. you don’t see the forrest for the trees, you cut off you nose to spite your face. Eternal Life is so much more than “going to heaven”. unfortunantly, like a sunset to a well frog you will not be able to comprehend what we crazy mormons get at.

    NOW CAN THIS THREAD PLEASE BE ABOUT ELDORADO 🙂

    Comment by bitterbarn | April 18, 2008

  14. hmmmm…. Where is Al Sharpton, Where is the ACLU now? Not there favorite demographic I suppose.
    mabye if they had been refered to as “nappy headed ho’s” eh?? oh wait, they would still be white conservatives so mabye that wouldn’t work after all.

    Comment by matt | April 18, 2008

  15. The comments on this post are more interesting than the post itself. I would like to say that I’m grateful that the national media coverage that I’ve seen (not much), has emphasized that the Mormon church is not affiliated with the FLDS church and does not condone any of their actions. At least they’re finally figuring out that we don’t practice polygamy anymore, and that we find rape, abuse, and underage marriages as sick and wrong as they do.

    Comment by Andrea | April 18, 2008

  16. you can get married in texas legally as a 16 year old.

    Comment by matt | April 18, 2008

  17. Good job Justin. That’s a good start.

    Why was Justin’s first post intended to inform us wayward mormons of the 10 commandments? This is where we get back to the topic of the original post.

    Justin is protestant (If he’s catholic, I’ll eat my hat). As such, it’s been pounded into his head that Mormon’s aren’t “Christians”. He felt it necessary to come and save us. Meanwhile, his ilk have been hating and murdering mormons for generations. It’s this same prejudice that keeps the mormons out of the Christian Coalition (not that we need/want it).

    The protestants in Eldorado decided it was time to get rid of those mormons, just like in the 1830s, but you can’t just go out in a mob these days. Ironically the FLDS aren’t the mormons, calling them such is like referring to baptists as catholic. One made up phone call, and a governmental system run by mormon hating protestants, and viola. Now we have a cross between internment camps and the holocaust.

    Comment by BugHunter | April 18, 2008

  18. thankyou, that was excactly my point.

    Comment by bitterbarn | April 18, 2008

  19. It has not been pounded into me BugHunter. I read in 2nd Nephi that you believe you are saved by grace after all you can do. My point with the 10 Commandments is what you can do is… sin. If you say it is grace through faith in Christ PLUS works, that is not Christian. It must be Jesus only.

    Comment by Justin | April 18, 2008

  20. So Jesus requires no effort on our part at all? Hala frekin luia.. Thats it I am converting to “christianity” money for nothing and chicks for free.

    Comment by bitterbarn | April 18, 2008

  21. BOYS, BOYS, BOYS…..

    Comment by melissa smith | April 18, 2008

  22. What’s all this nonsense about repenting, and changing your life? Aren’t those things that you DO? Those things you DO, like repenting…are works. Stop talking out of both sides of your mouth. In one post it’s, “keep the commandments”, “repent, and change your life around”. Then the next post it’s all “It doesn’t matter what you do with your life. Do whatever you want, you’ll still go to heaven.”

    You’re saying you aren’t “Christian” if you DO things like repent, give to charity, help others, etc. Those are works, those are bad. That doesn’t make any sense.

    Justin, you need to go learn what the words you are saying mean. You are unable to define grace, you are unable to define faith, you are unable to define works. If you do think you have an understanding of those three words, they are very different than what we know them as.

    You’ve come here thinking you know what we believe, when you aren’t even speaking the same language (assuming you aren’t as backward as I’ve made you sound so far).

    Typical “Christian” thought holds that, if you accept Jesus as you’re savior you are saved. Well, we’ve done that. Old news. We go a little farther in thinking that we should try to be good people as well…you know follow the example of Christ, not just pay him a bunch of lip service. “Christians” wouldn’t know about that though, their to busy carting off hundreds of frightened children, separating them from their mothers, because of a handful of abusive old men (Jeffs, Rulon, etc.). It use to be that the criminals were dragged from their home, not the victims.

    Comment by BugHunter | April 18, 2008

  23. Hey BugHunter. I didn’t say keep the commandments. I have said you have not kept the commandments. Repent – turn from sin towards Christ. It is no more of a “work” than reaching your hands out to receive a gift is work. A true Christian who places their faith In Jesus Christ alone for salvation will then do good works out of thankfulness for being saved, not so that God will save them.

    Comment by Justin | April 19, 2008

  24. Whoa! How do you know if bughunter hasn’t kept the cammandments? Justin, you are to busy telling other people they are not christian to realize that in doing so, YOU are being un-christian.

    Comment by LMWR | April 19, 2008

  25. I hope the accusations in Eldorado aren’t true, but if they are, I hope this is the end of the FLDS church as we know it. The whole thing does smell to high heaven, though. Where is the informant? Why Baptist buses? Weird. Will we ever know the truth of it?

    As for the rest of this, “when you wrestle with a pig, you get dirty.”

    To quote a very wise woman, “Boys, boys, boys….”

    Comment by Kathleen | April 19, 2008

  26. LMWR: I meant to say that nobody has kept the commandments, Even though I misspoke, what I said is still true. I know this because of Romans 3:23.

    Comment by Justin | April 19, 2008

  27. Justin, you say this stuff like you read it out of a book. Is “confront a mormon” the latest assignment in you christian college? Try doing some thinking about this on your own. The text book approach to dealing with you at this point is to cite James chapter 2. An argument about works is pretty pointless though. I think every action, thought and deed, counts in works…even reaching out your hand to accept a gift. You think of works as something you sweat doing, or is hard. We aren’t even talking about the same thing, so this won’t go anywhere.

    Try defining this for us, so that we’re all on the same page. What are you referring to as “saved”. Because what you understand it as, we actually all agree with. Everyone will be resurrected, just as Christ was on the 3rd day. No questions. No matter what you did or didn’t do in your life. Even the men on the crosses with Christ went to him in heaven when they died, did they not? You’re definition of “saved”, and your understanding of “heaven” are just a little lacking. If you would humble yourself and accept that you maybe don’t know everything about the gospel, God would teach you more.

    And stop harping on all this, nobody is perfect we all sin stuff. No one is disagreeing. Only one person has ever lived a sinless life. We know.

    Comment by BugHunter | April 20, 2008

  28. BugHunter, not everyone is saved. Some will be resurrected to Heaven and others to Hell. Works, as taught by the whole counsel of God’s Word is a result of salvation. James teaches us that works are a necessary result of salvation, but not a prerequisite to salvation. That means not only will you not get the highest form of Heaven or glorification (in fact, you will never become a god), but unless you trust in Jesus alone and give up on your works playing any part of it, you would end up in Hell. The Bible defines its own terms, You do not need the LDS Church to redefine it.

    Comment by Justin | April 20, 2008

  29. P.S. Why do you seem so angry without good cause?

    Comment by Justin | April 20, 2008

  30. just so I am clear:
    1. If I am resurected to “hell”. by your definiton, I have not been saved? correct?

    2. What is this “hell” you speak of? is it litteraly a place where you are on fire for ever and ever?
    respectully
    the bull

    Comment by matt | April 20, 2008

  31. sorry; afterthough
    If I go wisper your ear. I accept christ as my savior. Can I then avoid this “hell” alltogether? regardless of what I commit or omit in this life?

    Comment by matt | April 20, 2008

  32. I think we agree then, the only diffrence is that. if you are “resurrected to hell” in our opinion you have still been saved. cuz hey, your were resurrected. I think we think of the”hell” part differently. We call it something different and we don’t believe it is an eternal lava bath. So, In the end both the sinner and clean are “resurrected” but they are judged and have different outcomes. You have to agree though; both were “SAVED” from the bands of death.

    Comment by bitterbarn | April 20, 2008

  33. God did not “save us” by simply resurrecting us. The very fact that our earthly body will end to begin with is because of God’s punishment of sin (Romans 5:12). We then all deserve to go to Hell, but God chooses to save some people from His own wrath and Hell. This can only be done by repenting to faith in Jesus Christ.

    Matt, you assert that one could get saved and then do whatever he or she wants to do. That is in way correct. However, if one is saved/born again, they would not want to go off and kill someone for example. They would be given a new heart with new desires. Nextly, I could not care less if you accept Christ as Lord and Savior. That’s like saying you accept Bush as President. The secret service will still not let you into the Oval Office. What matters is if the Lord and Savior God accepts you. He cannot accept sin so we cannot be in the presence of God without His wrath abiding on us… unless Jesus Christ’s blood is applied to our account. This transaction takes place when we repent towards faith in Christ, God applies His grace, and we are born again.

    Comment by Justin | April 21, 2008

  34. your referring to “god’s punishment of sin” as death, So we are all subject to god’s punishment simply by being born? There is inherent sin? Is this based on Adam’s transgression in the garden of eden? I am just trying to understand how you think. I don’t expect you to understand us but I would like to understand you a little more, so I can see where the miscommunication is.
    1″god did not save us by simply resurrecting us”. what is it then. what exactly does “salvation” entail. I assume you also mean he was sacrificed for our sin. ergo resurrection + atonement = salvation??
    2″bughunter not all will be saved some will be resurrected to heaven and others to hell” this statement makes me think that resurrection is the basic part of “salvation” but in order to consider yourself “saved” you have to go to heaven??
    3 describe this heaven to me? what will we do there? do we sit on a cloud and play rockband? will there be lots of chocolate? will I be able to fly?

    you have inferred that Christ overcame physical death for us via the resurrection. (you ascertain however that we must earn that gift by accepting him/ or being borne again).
    And how about Spiritual death ( I define as separation from god because of sin) ie we can not “go to heaven” because we are sinners. I think you agree.
    let me put words in your mouth. you believe both physical death and spiritual death are both overcome by this act of “being saved” correct? once I am “saved” I will not only be resurrected but I will also go to heaven? no separation; Being “saved” implies both obstacles are taken care of (in the end of course)
    do I understand your point?
    This of course is not how we believe the plan has been laid out for us but I think I understand what you believe.

    Comment by bitterbarn | April 21, 2008

  35. Justin;
    If you believe in Christ, have faith, repent like you say you believe. WE also know that you will be resurrected and go to a great place; far better than this place so yeah your right.

    p.s. if you care theres a ton more.

    Comment by bitterbarn | April 21, 2008

  36. You said “you ascertain however that we must earn that gift by accepting him/ or being borne again).”
    *Receiving salvation is not earning it. If someone reaches out to receive a gift, did they “earn” it? No, they received it. We receive salvation and God will accept us when we repent towards faith in Christ alone.

    Heaven is where God resides. We will do what we want there according to our new desires.

    Comment by Justin | April 21, 2008

  37. Bitterbarn and BugHunter would really like to say is that we believe something called the 11th Article of Faith.

    “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

    daddyvaughn.wordpress.com

    Comment by daddyvaughn | April 21, 2008

  38. But if you believe wrongly in the essentials, you seem to worship in vain.

    Comment by Justin | April 21, 2008

  39. “But if you believe wrongly in the essentials, you seem to worship in vain.”

    That would be why we feel bad for you.

    What’s been going on here, is we’ve been trying to teach a 3rd grader calculus. He’s just starting out. He’s trying to learn his times tables, which is great. Discussing integrals is going to fly so far over his head that he’ll think it isn’t math at all.

    You’re doing fine Justin. Keep growing in faith. Someday you will be humble enough (compelled or otherwise) to accept that God has more knowledge in store for you, if you would listen to his spirit. Until that time, adieu.

    Comment by BugHunter | April 21, 2008

  40. thanks all for the input; this thread is now closed.

    Comment by bitterbarn | April 21, 2008


Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.

%d bloggers like this: